The 2030 Daily Keg - Week 17

[Guest]

Calling and framing are included in Catchers ability, learn a little bit before missleading other GMs.

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Please feel free to show me the page in OOTP that displays pitch framing data for catchers. Don’t worry, I’ll wait.

[Matt]

Well besides Shark being an ass I just learned something else from this thread.

The impact of catcher skill on pitching performance is already modeled in an abstract way through the Catcher rating. Framing ability was incorporated into the Catcher rating back in OOTP 13. I think it's been a part of every version since. I don't know that game calling skill has been looked at specifically. But overall, higher-rated catchers in OOTP have a positive influence on pitching performance.

Yes, this is accurately modeled via the Catcher Ability rating in OOTP.

I ran six seasons, two at Catcher Ability 190 (which is exactly 10 in a 1-10 scouting system), two at Catcher Ability 110 (which is exactly 6) and two at Catcher Ability 10 (which is exactly 1). So I have two at max, two at average and two at min.

Here are the numbers:

10 CA: 1450.7 IP, 1349 K, 548 BB
10 CA: 1457.3 IP, 1365 K, 507 BB
6 CA: 1439.3 IP, 1313 K, 552 BB
6 CA: 1481.3 IP, 1293 K, 580 BB
1 CA: 1459.7 IP, 1202 K, 575 BB
1 CA: 1444.3 IP, 1205 K, 551 BB

Converted to averages we have:

10 CA: 8.4 K/9, 3.27 BB/9
6 CA: 8.03 K/9, 3.49 BB/9
1 CA: 7.46 K/9, 3.49 BB/9

Not a perfect sample size, obviously you'd like to see more. But the difference between the three is pretty apparent, and I'm pleased that it's so obvious.

The difference between 10 CA and 1 CA is 0.94 K/9 and 0.22 BB/9

This drops the team FIP by 0.282, meaning it's worth about .282 runs per 9 innings

Figure that the average starting catcher racks up 1000 IP (your mileage may vary)

.282 runs per 9 becomes 0.0313 runs per inning, which becomes 31.33 runs per 1000 innings. So the gap between 10 Catcher Ability and 1 Catcher Ability is 31.3 runs, assuming 1000 IP.

There are 9 steps between 10 and 1, so every point of catcher ability in 1-10 scouting league is worth about 3.48 runs per 1000 IP.

This obviously does not take into account passed balls or other fielding that Catcher ability may be part of, it only values pitch framing.

This makes it in the same range of value as infield range for 2B or outfield range for LF.

Thoughts?

[Sharkn20]

Please feel free to show me the page in OOTP that displays pitch framing data for catchers. Don’t worry, I’ll wait.

Please read Matt's entry and feel free to navigate through the OOTP forums, I have enough trying to learn for myself, to on top of that having to teach you.

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/index.php

[Guest]

Please read Matt's entry and feel free to navigate through the OOTP forums, I have enough trying to learn for myself, to on top of that having to teach you.

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/index.php

Youve tried your citizens arrest stunt on trades, FA signings, and stadium expansions like ten times and you’ve been wrong each time. That whole post is rich lolol. Yes, I’m the one who needs to read.

My post addressed UZR and how it relates to MLB catchers, and my first post regarding the subject was about outfielders and cited major league examples. Sorry I didn’t know that OOTP calculates the metric completely different than real life. I have a job and shit.

[Guest]

MOVING ON....

[Carlos]

I'm still waiting for pitch framing data...

Are we not getting that?

[funclown]

I’d also add that zone rating really isn’t that important or indicative of a catcher’s defensive prowess. CS% is huge, as are game calling and pitch framing, which obviously aren’t quantifiable in this context.

Great point !! Didn't even include catchers in this mix. Kind of a different animal but important none less.

[Guest]

I'm still waiting for pitch framing data...

Are we not getting that?

In all seriousness, it seems impossible to quantify how much that factors into ZR when it’s only one part of it, and we (if someone knows please correct me) don’t even know how they calculate it.

[Carlos]

In all seriousness, it seems impossible to quantify how much that factors into ZR when it’s only one part of it, and we (if someone knows please correct me) don’t even know how they calculate it.

No that's my point. You asked for the data and it was not provided. It's not in OOTP so I think you have a valid point. We don't have a way to measure pitch framing data in OOTP. All we have is a rating that says "Catcher good."

I would like more info.

[Guest]

No that's my point. You asked for the data and it was not provided. It's not in OOTP so I think you have a valid point. We don't have a way to measure pitch framing data in OOTP. All we have is a rating that says "Catcher good."

I would like more info.

Agree. We know the factors that go into ZR, but we don’t know how they’re weighted. If a catcher has a +5.2 ZR, how much of it is framing or blocking pitches in the dirt? Additionally, it’s difficult to determine how good they are at those individual things when the game doesn’t provide specific data (and I understand why; not everyone who plays is a sabermetrics wonk). I’m also skeptical that they can accurately calculate or quantify pitch framing considering they’d need info on the exact location of every single pitch thrown. IMO it doesn’t work as a vague part of another statistic...you need some sort of ancillary information to provide context so you can see who actually is really good at it.

Thats why I said earlier that beyond the rating, I mainly look for stuff like RTO% because we’re not really given much to work with.

[Sharkn20]

No that's my point. You asked for the data and it was not provided. It's not in OOTP so I think you have a valid point. We don't have a way to measure pitch framing data in OOTP. All we have is a rating that says "Catcher good."

I would like more info.

Have you read Matt's information?

Anyways, pitching frame can be measured by passed balls right? Well my Catchers during the last 2 seasons Williams has an average of 0.01 passed balls per chance, Brown 0.007. Brown is my defensive specialist.

You can see that diference yourself between your own Williams and your starter. That's your example, unless of course you don't want to see it. I personally would like to avoid PBs in save situations. That's why I sent J.J. to PAW and Bachelor to DV, they had good bats but too many defensive miscues. Thank God now I got Nichols developing in AA. An elite Catcher ability with sensational contact / gap / avoid K potential.

I would love to see how good they are calling the game too, but I am unable to get the data and see the diference between Pitcher's FIP when the defensive Catcher is on the game and when it is not. But I don't have the comouter skills for that yet, but I trust what I read in OOTP forums from players that crunch the numbers like Matt's example. Subjectively though I can see the difference when I watch the games.

[Pat]

Anyways, pitching frame can be measured by passed balls right?

"Framing is the art of making a pitch that is near (border line strike/ball) the zone appear to be a strike when in fact it may not be."

But, I would assume an OOTP catchers ability to frame a pitch and his amount of passed balls, comes from the same "catcher ability" rating. But behind the scenes, that rating could be made up of multiple ratings/skills.

[Carlos]

Have you read Matt's information?

Anyways, pitching frame can be measured by passed balls right? Well my Catchers during the last 2 seasons Williams has an average of 0.01 passed balls per chance, Brown 0.007. Brown is my defensive specialist.

You can see that diference yourself between your own Williams and your starter. That's your example, unless of course you don't want to see it. I personally would like to avoid PBs in save situations. That's why I sent J.J. to PAW and Bachelor to DV, they had good bats but too many defensive miscues. Thank God now I got Nichols developing in AA. An elite Catcher ability with sensational contact / gap / avoid K potential.

I would love to see how good they are calling the game too, but I am unable to get the data and see the diference between Pitcher's FIP when the defensive Catcher is on the game and when it is not. But I don't have the comouter skills for that yet, but I trust what I read in OOTP forums from players that crunch the numbers like Matt's example. Subjectively though I can see the difference when I watch the games.

I know what you're saying shark but that's not pitch frame data.

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[Guest]

Here’s an example of actual pitch framing data from MLB. For reference:

zBall%: percentage of pitches that were in the strike zone, but called balls

oStrike%: percentage of pitches outside the strike zone that were called strikes

+Calls: net result of the amount of calls that went either in favor of or against the catcher (positive number = good), with the per game average in the next column

RAA: Runs Above Average, meaning someone with an RAA of 10 saved their team ten runs more than a league average catcher in a season as a result of their framing

http://www.statcorner.com/CatcherReport.php