Let's win it for . . .

[Pat]

Food for thought...

Player 1: .263 batting average
Player 2: .258 batting average

Player 1: 995 RBI
Player 2: 996 RBI

Player 1: .835 OPS
Player 2: .843 OPS

Player 1: 300 HR
Player 2: 293 HR

Player 1: 5 stolen bases
Player 2: 174 stolen bases

Neither player was a defensive stud. Player 1 played on majority of losing teams. Player 2 played on majority of winning teams, including two that won the Brewmaster's. Neither won a defensive award or were ever considered "good" in the field.

Spoiler

Player 1 is Wilton Harcourt.
Player 2 is Dave Robbins.

[Z]

Unlike Carlos, I strongly consider defensive position when judging players' careers. There is a huge difference to me in comparing a slugging second baseman and a slugging corner outfielder. Good hitting corner outfielders are great to have on your team, but they're much easier to find than a second baseman who has a 141 career OPS+ with 300 home runs. Harcourt's career is unique in the BLB. That distinction is really what this conversation hinges on.

Another conversation piece to throw out there. Jake and Carlos suggested that Harcourt benefited from playing second rather than third due to less competition at the position. If there's so much more competition at third base -- which might very well be true -- why don't more GM's move these slugging third basemen to second base?

[Pat]

Another conversation piece to throw out there. Jake and Carlos suggested that Harcourt benefited from playing second rather than third due to less competition at the position. If there's so much more competition at third base -- which might very well be true -- why don't more GM's move these slugging third basemen to second base?

Because they want to win? Second base is a position you want a great defender. Look at Harcourt's W-L record in his career and you'll understand.

[Z]

Harcourt has never been good defensively, but I meant that as a general statement. There are a bunch of slugging third basemen in the league in any given year, many of whom are very capable of handling the defensive rigors of second base.

And Harcourt's teams haven't sucked solely because of his defense. He's played on some god awful teams. I should know.

[Clay]

The lost $30 million At-Bat season in his prime hurts his case. But I know Z and I will both lobby hard.

[Pat]

Harcourt has never been good defensively, but I meant that as a general statement. There are a bunch of slugging third basemen in the league in any given year, many of whom are very capable of handling the defensive rigors of second base.

"Handling" and "excelling" are two different things.

Historically, I play pretty top notch defenders at 2B. Jack Dynes, R.A. Grounds and Robert Abbott for the majority of the past 10 years.

"You can put lipstick on a pig...but it's still a pig."

[Z]

You've certainly won your share of games, so I'll trust that your strategy works for you.

Me? If given the opportunity, I'll put a 5 rated defender at second if he's going to hit like Johnny Buzzell or Vincent Nino. He'll cost you a few runs in the field relative to the typical defensive second baseman, but he'll more than make up for it at the plate.

[Lintyfresh85]

I'm confused, why is Harcourt on waivers?

I thought you loved the guy?

[Z]

I do. I also have a responsibility to make the best decisions for my organization.

[Lintyfresh85]

Alright.

I was confused when I first saw him listed... but then I saw his ratings.

You're making the right move.

[Pat]

You've certainly won your share of games, so I'll trust that your strategy works for you.

Me? If given the opportunity, I'll put a 5 rated defender at second if he's going to hit like Johnny Buzzell or Vincent Nino. He'll cost you a few runs in the field relative to the typical defensive second baseman, but he'll more than make up for it at the plate.

It really just depends on your alternatives.

Would you rather play that "5" who hits like Nino at 2B, if your 3B option is a "4" who is only going to hit .230 with 20 HRs? I'd take a stud defender at 2B and move my guy who hits like Nino, back to 3B.

Alright.

I was confused when I first saw him listed... but then I saw his ratings.

You're making the right move.

Pretty sure he was signed just to get to 300 HR.

[Carlos]

Another conversation piece to throw out there. Jake and Carlos suggested that Harcourt benefited from playing second rather than third due to less competition at the position. If there's so much more competition at third base -- which might very well be true -- why don't more GM's move these slugging third basemen to second base?

I see where you're going with this question, but I don't think it's that simple. I'm not sure why Harcourt became a 2B. I can't see his defensive ratings from years ago, but right now it says he can't play the position. I'm assuming it wasn't always that way.

When Harcourt was in Denver, we had Tesina at 3B. I came in with Harcourt already a 2B so I placed him there for my first season (1982) and he was gone by next year. I should note that I had two reasons to dump him: His defense and his contract (contract was the biggest, though).

Anyway, assuming that Harcourt did once have an ability to play 2B (I'm sure he did), I'm going to guess it was lower than playing 3B? It's hard for me to really comment on this but I guess I'll look at the overall picture of any 3B - which is the point of your question anyway.

If I have a 3B who can play some 2B and hit the ball, you better believe I'm going to move him to 2B to get his offense. But, he needs to be a whole lot better offensively than my 2B option who I will assume is a great defensive player - otherwise, why even have this conversation?

In fact, I did have that guy. His name is Lionel Tesina. Same guy that I assume forced Harcourt to 2B (or whichever was the reason the previous GM had). I moved Tesina from 3B to 2B where he was actually less skilled. But his offense made it necessary and my only other 2B option was Ken Mazurek who might have been a better defensive player but Tesina was much much better offensively.

[Lintyfresh85]

Might have been as simple as Harcourt not having the arm rating for 3B?

If guys have similar ratings at 2B/3B, I play the guy with the stronger arm at 3B every time.

[Carlos]

Might have been as simple as Harcourt not having the arm rating for 3B?

If guys have similar ratings at 2B/3B, I play the guy with the stronger arm at 3B every time.

I do take that into consideration as well. I wish I knew why Harcourt became a 2B. We'd have to ask the man that controlled him earlier in his career.

[Delandis]

When he played for Baltimore he had the arm but his defense sucked. That's why I moved him to 3rd.