2021 End of Season Awards

[Delandis]

No disrespect to anyone else but I've always voted on this award with the idea that it should go to the person who did the best job that year. And for that reason I've always avoided casting ballots for teams who led an extended rebuild to the top of the standings. To me, that type of success takes skill and patience, and it deserves credit, but not with this award.

None taken.

That's always how I've voted except I vote for whoever was the best excluding myself because I feel like I'm probably going to be a bit biased when placing myself on the ballot.

[Guest]

Kinda surprised the Last Call race is so close...Rosaro was half a win better than Ingle, and saves are pretty meaningless.

[PaulC]

Kinda surprised the Last Call race is so close...Rosaro was half a win better than Ingle, and saves are pretty meaningless.

I'm not. Both have very good stats. Saves might not have the meaning they once did, but I'm guessing for some voters the 7-1 vs. 7-6 record maybe makes up for the difference in WAR, considering a lot of the other stats are extremely close.

[Guest]

I'm not. Both have very good stats. Saves might not have the meaning they once did, but I'm guessing for some voters the 7-1 vs. 7-6 record maybe makes up for the difference in WAR, considering a lot of the other stats are extremely close.

Win/loss records for pitchers are even more meaningless.

A closer could blow a 3 run lead and get a win if the offense scores a run in the bottom of the inning (at home of course). That's kinda lame.

[Z]

I'm not. Both have very good stats. Saves might not have the meaning they once did, but I'm guessing for some voters the 7-1 vs. 7-6 record maybe makes up for the difference in WAR, considering a lot of the other stats are extremely close.

To me the key difference is the 33 more strikeouts in basically the same number of innings (and fewer games).

[Guest]

Just looking at the two and comparing who leads in which categories:

Rosaro: ERA, WAR, H/9, K/9, K, ERA+, FIP
Ingle: SV, BB/9

[Cory]

The important thing is that Lovera wins the IL Last Call.

[Delandis]

The important thing is that Lovera wins the IL Last Call.

He will even when he shouldn't.

[PaulC]

Win/loss records for pitchers are even more meaningless.

A closer could blow a 3 run lead and get a win if the offense scores a run in the bottom of the inning (at home of course). That's kinda lame.

Yes he could, but that didn't apply to anyone here.

[PaulC]

Just looking at the two and comparing who leads in which categories:

Rosaro: ERA, WAR, H/9, K/9, K, ERA+, FIP
Ingle: SV, BB/9

This is the beauty of baseball... All kinds of stats to make an argument...

I wonder if in 40 years people are going to look at WAR the way we look at stats like batting average, RBI, and W/L now?!

[Z]

This is the beauty of baseball... All kinds of stats to make an argument...

I wonder if in 40 years people are going to look at WAR the way we look at stats like batting average, RBI, and W/L now?!

It's unlikely.

It's possible WAR is viewed the way we now see earlier attempts like VORP and WARP.

[PaulC]

It's unlikely.

It's possible WAR is viewed the way we now see earlier attempts like VORP and WARP.

Agreed. People are starting to find holes in WAR (too heavy relied on defence and position) that make it not quite the perfect stat it was originally sold out to be. But the constant search for better data is one of the things I love about baseball.

[Guest]

This is the beauty of baseball... All kinds of stats to make an argument...

I wonder if in 40 years people are going to look at WAR the way we look at stats like batting average, RBI, and W/L now?!

RBI/W/SV are all stats that are beholden to circumstance and variables, so the story they tell will always be inaccurate or incomplete. Despite its flaws, WAR takes pretty much everything into account. I could definitely see an improved version of the stat at some point; hell maybe some teams already have one that they haven't made public.

I usually use WAR and wRC+ together, since wRC+ doesn't account for defense. FIP is my go-to for pitchers, but like wRC+ it doesn't take defensive value into account.

[Z]

Agreed. People are starting to find holes in WAR (too heavy relied on defence and position) that make it not quite the perfect stat it was originally sold out to be. But the constant search for better data is one of the things I love about baseball.

I don't know of any serious person who says that WAR is a perfect stat. That suggestion sounds like a straw man.

A good stat? Sure.

Probably the best total value stat we have at this time? Yeah.

A perfect stat that can't be improved upon? Certainly not.

[PaulC]

I don't know of any serious person who says that WAR is a perfect stat. That suggestion sounds like a straw man.

A good stat? Sure.

Probably the best total value stat we have at this time? Yeah.

A perfect stat that can't be improved upon? Certainly not.

Agreed! Not perfect to be sure, but it is usually held up in a lot of circles as it is.