2011 Hall of Fame Voting

[BDub]

I'm not really sure what you're getting at, Mike.

Dane Browning and Curt Dodson are the only non-middle infielders on the ballot who didn't have at least an .800 OPS. And no one's losing sleep over them not getting votes.

Maybe there's a different standard or stat you have in mind?

Is there some standard stats the new GMs can look at? In case that maybe some are relating BLB numbers to the MLB.

[Z]

Is there some standard stats the new GMs can look at? In case that maybe some are relating BLB numbers to the MLB.

It's hard to say because we have 33 years of history versus over 100 years of MLB.

Both the HTML reports and the OOTP utility we use have leaderboards for specific stats. You can look at those to see where a candidate ranks all-time in different categories. I tried to explain in the writeups which things to look for.

[Ryan]

I'm not really sure what you're getting at, Mike.

Dane Browning and Curt Dodson are the only non-middle infielders on the ballot who didn't have at least an .800 OPS. And no one's losing sleep over them not getting votes.

Maybe there's a different standard or stat you have in mind?

Agreed, I didn't vote for either.

It's hard to say because we have 33 years of history versus over 100 years of MLB.

Both the HTML reports and the OOTP utility we use have leaderboards for specific stats. You can look at those to see where a candidate ranks all-time in different categories. I tried to explain in the writeups which things to look for.

Another thing to keep in mind is the fact we've changed versions so many times. These version changes, in my opinion, affect how a player accumulates stats.

I won't even get into non Virginia players that were altered.

[mike]

I'm not really sure what you're getting at, Mike.

Dane Browning and Curt Dodson are the only non-middle infielders on the ballot who didn't have at least an .800 OPS. And no one's losing sleep over them not getting votes.

Maybe there's a different standard or stat you have in mind?

There's 10 overall players on the ballot with sub .800 ops. Some are middle infielders some aren't.

In my opinion there shouldn't be any non pitchers in the HOF that can't even OPS .800 but then you look at some of the different things and some guys aren't power guys so you have to take that into consideration but I mean shit some guys just aren't worthy. Just because There's not a lot of guys in the club doesn't mean that we need to make exceptions because there hasn't been a vote in a few seasons.

But overall my ballot has like 20 guys on it. Not sure if that's a lot or a little. Went back 3 times to keep checking to see if there was anything I missed and there was, I noticed one pitcher spent 10 seasons in Pitt and another in Denver so the fact they had a sub 4 era for his career was good enough for me.

[BDub]

I'll take another look at my ballot to see if there is anyone I missed. Also, what do you guys think the average number of players is on a ballot?

[Z]

There's 10 overall players on the ballot with sub .800 ops. Some are middle infielders some aren't.

In my opinion there shouldn't be any non pitchers in the HOF that can't even OPS .800 but then you look at some of the different things and some guys aren't power guys so you have to take that into consideration but I mean shit some guys just aren't worthy. Just because There's not a lot of guys in the club doesn't mean that we need to make exceptions because there hasn't been a vote in a few seasons.

But overall my ballot has like 20 guys on it. Not sure if that's a lot or a little. Went back 3 times to keep checking to see if there was anything I missed and there was, I noticed one pitcher spent 10 seasons in Pitt and another in Denver so the fact they had a sub 4 era for his career was good enough for me.

Seven of the ten who are sub-.800 OPS are middle infielders. The one thing everyone seems to agree on is that the other three players are fringe candidates.

I'm more interested about why the players with .800+ OPSes for example aren't on a lot of ballots.

I don't know what the average ballot size is but I do know several general managers including myself have voted for 30-35 guys.

I think it would be hard to vote for too many guys.

[Delandis]

There's 10 overall players on the ballot with sub .800 ops. Some are middle infielders some aren't.

In my opinion there shouldn't be any non pitchers in the HOF that can't even OPS .800 but then you look at some of the different things and some guys aren't power guys so you have to take that into consideration but I mean shit some guys just aren't worthy. Just because There's not a lot of guys in the club doesn't mean that we need to make exceptions because there hasn't been a vote in a few seasons.

But overall my ballot has like 20 guys on it. Not sure if that's a lot or a little. Went back 3 times to keep checking to see if there was anything I missed and there was, I noticed one pitcher spent 10 seasons in Pitt and another in Denver so the fact they had a sub 4 era for his career was good enough for me.

Then you BETTER have voted for Nathan. He played in Baltimore for 12 years. No excuses, Mike.

Us little league parks have to stick together.

[Z]

If OPS is the stat people are looking at, I don't understand how Carmem Chamissa with his .912 career OPS, 1.042 postseason OPS, 7 All-Star appearances, and back-to-back Stout Sluggers isn't on every ballot.

[Jake]

I'm not saying whether or not I voted for him, but I assume it would go

-Defense
-Baserunning
-Longevity

[BDub]

At the end of the day, it's a matter of opinion. A Hall of Fame player is gonna be different by other GMs definition. There are a ton of stats to look at and some guys may weigh each differently.

[Delandis]

I'm not saying whether or not I voted for him, but I assume it would go

-Defense
-Baserunning
-Longevity

Defense and baserunning from a first baseman?

[Jake]

Well, I will say, I went back and changed my vote for Chamissa and Campo. And if the ballot stays out there much longer I might change back.

I have 9 guys on my ballot which makes me feel very dirty, but I'm trying to see the perspective here. But my natural inclination is to be much stingier than even Mike.

The fact people are talking about Noah George like he even belongs on the will call ticket list to look around is ridiculous. 1 AS; 100 OPS+; average defense at best. 2 of his best 3 seasons were injury shortened. In a hitters era, a career OPS sub .750. It's not there.

Sure, the MIF position is underrepresented. They all have flaws and maybe we looked too much at the offensive production alone. But between Carbajal, Durham, and Scott, it looks like we'll have 2 in if not 3 in a couple days. I think that's an accurate reflection of the position.

In the first 33 years of the BHOF, from my rough math it looks like there were 38 people voted in by the writers (not including veterans committee folks). This includes the first few ballots where you had 50 years worth of retired guys to get in like Ruth, Young, Wagner, etc. Now; to be fair, there were also less teams in the majors back then than the BLB.

That being said, we have 27 guys in the hall through 33 years. It's probably a little too discerning, but, we're correcting it with the veterans committee. As we get to 50, 75 seasons in the not-so-distant-realworld-future, we'll have a better feel for what's really HOF worthy numbers.

My other thoughts on the situation is that we keep saying that the MLB is not a fair comparison for the BLB. Ok, so why does the BLB HOF have to be comparable in numbers and relative ease of entry to MLB's? We go through seasons at a fast pace around here. In 4 real world years we're decades down the line. What's wrong with being stingy? The names will accumulate at a faster rate either way. For a real life comparison, 70% of folks, including myself, think Piazza should be in the HOF but he's not, yet. And that's fine; that's the way it works. We don't have a ton of owner turnover and if 75% of the guys don't think a guy is a HOF, or can be convinced by the old guys, then oh well, he's not.

I'd be down for something like a veterans "entry" similar to what we've done here every 15-20 years or so. If they get 50% of the vote, they can stay on until they fall off. It'll sort itself out and my guess is that every time we do it a couple guys will gain entry that fell through the cracks as we get more historical context.

[Jake]

Defense and baserunning from a first baseman?

Sure.

[Z]

Jake, I really appreciate you taking the time to explain and putting yourself out there.

Regarding Noah George specifically, he is on the fence to me. I voted for him because I think a shortstop who is 10th in BLB history in hits is impressive. I can understand him being left out because he didn't have the peak value of other guys on the ballot.

With the numbers of guys inducted compared to the MLB at the same time, you raise a good point.

My counterargument is 4 of the BLB's 27 guys are relief pitchers who are sort of their own creature compared to position players and starting pitchers. The MLB Hall didn't induct any relievers in the early days.

If you compare just the hitters and starting pitchers in the Halls, it's 23 in the BLB Hall to 38 in MLB Hall at the same point in time.

That difference looks very dramatic to me. There's "discerning," as you said, and then there's being far too strict.

To only have one or two or even zero guys at specific positions in the Hall ... or to go years and years without inducting any starting pitchers ... that's a problem to me.

[Jake]

I thought of the reliever angle, and I know where you're coming from.

I guess I feel like if we are going to overvalue, relative to MLB, relievers, than it's natural to swing a little bit the other way on SP and, potentially hitters.

If MR's and closers are that important - then to me, SP's are just that little bit less important. If I had to measure it, I'd say by about 4 guys over 33 years. ;-)

I just feel like it's really, really easy in a league like this - at the pace we sim, which I suppose is truly relatively slow for an online league - to get out of hand numbers fairly quickly.

I will agree on Chamissa and Campo though; those guys belong on the back to back SS alone.

Random Question: Why didn't Joe Ponte make the veterans ballot?